Lived Experience Forum

[chibam]

---

@Paperdaisy wrote:

@chibam I'm sorry, it sounds like this has been a difficult journey for you. Thank you for sharing and being so honest with us here 

---

@PaperdaisyIt's just an endless sense of captivity; being trapped in hopeless confusion. Trying for years to figure out what they want and how to get the help I need, and never, ever getting anywhere.

[Paperdaisy]

Question 2

Are there men in the community that have positive stories of recovery that you look up to? Please share stories, articles, songs, books, videos by your idols/those you look up to and why their story is important to you.

I recently watched The Truth About Anxiety With Celia Pacquola and was really inspired by one of her guests, Mitch Morton, who spoke up about his battle with anxiety in an industry where men are probably not that open about their internal world. You can read more about this here  for those that are interested.

Thank you to those who have supported this dicussion so far @frog @Anastasia @chibam @MDT @Everan 

Paperdaisy 💝☀️🌼

[Anastasia]

Osher Gunsberg 🙏

#better than yesterday podcast

I know he's affiliated with SANE. I have so much respect for him.

Also Kianu Reeves, such a kind soul who has donated countless money to many causes. 

[TideisTurning]

I really like Osher's podcast too @Anastasia 😊 Osher is such a champ when it comes to talking about mental health really openly! There've been some really great episodes (if that's what you call them? Really not up on my terminology) and one in particular with a breathing exercise I use as a go to when facing some situations that can provoke anxiety for me, because then all I have to do is focus on Osher's voice and do what he says.  

@Paperdaisy that was a really interesting watch! 

[chibam]

---

@Paperdaisy wrote:

Question 2

Are there men in the community that have positive stories of recovery that you look up to? Please share stories, articles, songs, books, videos by your idols/those you look up to and why their story is important to you.

---

"Stories of recovery"... Wow, that's a hard one. Truth be told, I'm not the sort of person who avidly reads through the celebrity mags, so I really don't have a lot to draw from here.

But I suppose the one that really stands out is Billy Connolly.

I know that he suffered some degree of domestic abuse (sexual, I think) as a child or teenager, and yet he's managed to push past that misery and dedicate his life to making the world laugh. And judging by his material, he's also ended up living a really hilarious life, surrounded by really wild, interesting people!

---

@Paperdaisy wrote:

...why their story is important to you.

---

I guess because it's important to know that people are capable of producing joy and happiness. And that our modern 21st century life is capable of generating hilarious events.

I want to be a positive presence on this earth; a source of delight and laughter. I want my impact on this world to give people incentive to believe that their lives are worth prolonging.

A practically-essential first step to achieving that goal is to have evidance that it is indeed humanly possible; that a human being is indeed capable of making others happy, and thereby demonstrating to those people that life is an experiance worth prolonging. Because if you don't have any proof that it actually can be done (i.e. making people happy), how hard are you gonna try to achieve that insurmountable goal, before you run out of steam and give in to your scepticism and doubt?

So Billy demonstrating that a human being can indeed make the world a better place is a very reassuring piece of evidance. Even leaving aside the fact that he is an undeniably extraordinary human being (he has a gift that most wannabe comedians would kiII for), he demonstrates that it's not impossible for a human to be a positive presence, which makes my ambitions seem a little less like a pipe dream.

And the eventfulness of his life and those around him is important too, because it gives me hope that, if we can surround ourselves with the right sort of people, life can indeed be enjoyable.

Real life, for me, has been a very compelling bed of evidance to the contrary; that life is incapable of being eventful or enjoyable (with any consistancy), and that people overwhelming inflict nothing but boredom and misery upon those around them - almost entirely lacking the capacity to be assets to the people who know them.

So, it's a precious gift to have characters like Billy offering us all a slim glimmer of hope.

[Paperdaisy]

@chibam Thank you for your thoughtful and considered responses as always. It's always interesting to read what you have to say😊

Just wanted to add, it didn't have to be a celebrity, could be a culture you really connect with or appreciate. Yes Billy, what a great guy. I always admire those that can turn sadness into light and laughter. 

Time for our next question... 

[Paperdaisy]

Question 3

How can we support boys to grow into resilient men? 

Here are some useful links from mensline. 

https://mensline.org.au/being-a-dad/tips-for-building-emotional-development-in-children/ 

https://mensline.org.au/being-a-dad/how-to-strengthen-family-communication/ 

In our house, we have very open conversations about our feelings and encourage the same in our children. We want them to feel they can come to us for anything. I’d be interested to know how others navigate this or if you don't have children how you think society has changed in this way. Please respectfully share anything you find interesting or helpful.

[chibam]

---

@Paperdaisy wrote:

Question 3

How can we support boys to grow into resilient men? 

---

Okay, so this is a subject line that I have a lot to say about, so I’m gonna start off by apologizing in advance for monopolizing this thread for a bit. But I really think that these things I’m gonna talk about need to be addressed. Especially because many of them have been “unmentionable” elephants in the room for far too long.

For convienience, I’m going to break this in to two parts, to address the two major points I want to discuss regarding that question.

Part 1: Is Resiliance Actually A Good Thing?

It’s actually quite serendipitous you asking that question today, because I’ve only just this weekend been having a deep discussion in another thread about my struggles with the terms “cope”/“coping” and “resiliant”/”resiliance”. And at the heart of my concerns is what we mean by “resiliance”, and why we believe people ought to have it.

Here’s a paraphrased extract from that other discussion I was having:

@chibam wrote:

I mean, think about it in terms of someone suffering a physical distress - say, kidney stones.

When a person [is resiliantly coping] with their kidney stones, does that mean that their stones are unusually small, ergo not patricularly painful, and they don't really need much assistance or care?

Or does it mean that they have dull nerves? And even though they have large kidney stones that would have any other person howling in agony, they don't particularly feel troubled by it, even though they are enduring a serious crisis?

Or does it mean that they are able to suppress their urge to scream, so that they don't disturb or inconvienience anybody, even though they are writhing in horrendous agony?

What does [resiliance] mean?

---

IMHO, we seem to jump right into questions like: “How can we support boys to grow into resilient men?”, without ever stopping to ask: “Should we want our boys to grow into resiliant men? And if so, why?”

Content/trigger warning

Do we want them to be resiliant for our own sakes? Because it makes life easier for us if they can be subjected to endless hardship and torment without breaking down or being driven to suicide? Because it’s bad for the national economy when men choose to bail out of these lives that are arduous, hollow, lonely, demeaning, and/or obscenely painful? Is it, figuratively, a case of us being displeased that the latest generations of Mack Trucks can’t haul the loads that their forebears could, without conking out from the strain? Or that they fall to pieces far more readily when they run into a kangaroo, whereas the older, sturdier models would’ve taken the impact and “kept on truckin’”?

Or do we want men to be resiliant because there is some ultimate benefit to them to surviving their trials and coming out the other end? And if so, where is the proof that such a rewarding end goal actually exists? And where is the proof that this end goal is so commonplace that the overall rule-of-thumb is that resiliance will serve a man well, as opposed to a scenario where only a handful of men will benefit from resiliance, while the majority will suffer long and pointlessly because of it?

As I think about this question, I can’t help but think about the role of fuses in electrical devices - including the power grids within our own homes. Fuses are deliberately and wisely made brittle; made to self-destruct when conditions go beyond what can be considdered reasonable. And in doing so, they prevent the excessive voltage that is assaulting them from causing senseless dammage.

If the fuse in my television was “resiliant” and didn’t burn out when a voltage spike came down the line, it would fry the circuitry of my TV; maybe cause an explosion. If the fuses in my fuse box were “resiliant”, and didn’t burn out when there was too much electrical load running through my household, the wires in my walls would overheat and start a fire in the walls. So much senseless destruction could occur, if just one little part refused to break down in the face of hopelessly unendurable conditions.

Is that what we do to our sons when we inflict “resiliance” upon them? Are we jury-rigging their fuse boxes so they can’t “burn out” in the face of hopelessly overwhelming pressures? Are we merely condemning them to lengthy, senseless torture, when weaker men would’ve mercifully “burnt out” much earlier?

Perhaps it’s a foregone conclusion that life is going to destroy you. The only difference “resiliance” makes is whether or not you still have a pulse after you’ve been destroyed - whether you must endure the reality of being a broken shell, or whether you are at peace.

I’m not saying that’s definitely the way things are.

I’m just saying that I think we owe it to our boys to ask these questions, and give them all due considderation, before we commit ourselves to imposing “resiliance” upon them.

[chibam]

Part 2: What Not To Do.

---

@Paperdaisy wrote:

Question 3

How can we support boys to grow into resilient men? 

---

Rather then offering a direct answer to that question, I’d like to offer my 2 cents on what we absolutely shouldn’t be doing.

Specifically, I really disagree with this philosophy I’ve heard on numerous occasions that seems to go: “Modern boys aren’t resiliant because their fathers bottle up their own miseries, and because of that, the sons fall to pieces when they encounter those same miseries. So fathers need to stop sparing their kids the ugly realities of life, and tell them all about their personal miseries, so that the kids will know what their expected to be resiliant against.”

I’m sorry, but that just makes no sense to me; and I know that manifestations of it during my own childhood didn’t do me any favors.

[I had a longer passage here, but on re-reading, I realize that it was a bit fired-up and antagonistic, so I've cropped it out]

I had my parents (and some other adults) leak me various snippets of the uglinesses of their own lives growing up. Rather then serve as incentives to be resiliant, they actually served to corroborate my own suspicions that life is more trouble then it’s worth.

If you want to encourage someone to be resiliant, don’t drum it in to them how undesirable life is. You need to make a case for survival! You need to make a compelling argument that, whatever hardships the sufferer is going through, enduring those hardships will be worth the sufferer’s while, because at the end of it all, they’ll be rewarded to such an extent that it justifies all the suffering they’ve gone through.

That is how you convince someone to be resiliant. That is how you convince someone to survive their ordeals. You convince them that it’ll be worth their while.

Market the good stuff, not the bad. Then, maybe, we’ll be willing to pay the price when the rent man comes knocking.

[Paperdaisy]

Question 4

How can men build a sense of community for themselves and others?

Please respectfully share your experiences, resources, ideas so others can use this to support themselves or the ones they care about.

Mens shed is such a great resource I’d like to share. https://mensshed.org/ 

Does anyone know of others like this?

Thank you for all of your contributions, this will be our last question if anyone would like to add anything😊

@chibam @MDT @Everan @Anastasia @flybluebird @cloudcore @Rhye @Shaz51